Pink Moon Crystal vs. Ginzuishou

[serefan]

Hey everyone, I'm new here. Sorry if I didn't take the time to see if anyone else has already asked this question but it's something that's been on my mind for quite a while, regarding Sailor Moon that is, and I thought the forum would be the correct place to discuss this:

Many SM sites I've been to (including this one) describe the Pink Moon Crystal also known as ChibiUsa's Silver Crystal in the manga as that of Neo Queen Serenity (the Silver Crystal of the future) which became hers when she cried over Pluto's death... People who think this say that the brilliant object that ChibiUsa is holding while transforming into a sailor senshi for the first time (in the Black Moon arc) is either her tear resonating with the Silver Crystal of the future, or the Silver Crystal of the future itself which went to her hands.

The problem I have with this theory is that the object in ChibiUsa's hands, while a tear in the beginning, becomes too big to be just a tear in the next panel, and it has a pointy end at the bottom, not the top (whilst tears are conventionally drawn with a pointy end at the top, aren't they?) Thus I find it difficult to think it's a tear... I also have trouble thinking it's the Silver Crystal of the future, because when Usagi/Serena/Bunny had taken the Silver Crystals of the past and future from Prince Diamond (after Pluto had stopped time) she kept one (which she used later to transform) and gave the other to Sailor Venus... and when Sailor Moon and Tuxedo Kamen have already been teleported to space to fight Nemesis and Neo Queen Serenity wakes up, while she's talking with Sailor Chibimoon we see an image of Sailor Venus looking at the two as they talk and STILL holding the Silver Crystal of the future... (therefore, the Silver Crystal of the future couldn't have teleported to ChibiUsa when she was transforming, otherwise why give it back to Venus?)

Thus, if it's too bing to be a tear, and it wasn't drwan like one, and it's not the Silver Crystal of the future because that one was still much later on in Venus' hands... what IS the glowing object in ChibiUsa's hands as she is transforming? Couldn't it be her own Silver Crystal that she had created?

Things that happen later on in other arcs seem to confirm this idea: Usagi tells Neherenia that power is born, not taken (thus ChibiUsa couldn't have taken the crystal from her mother) and later in the Stars arc she finds out the Silver Crystal is her sailor crystal/star seed... Someone once said it's possible the Silver Crystal became Usagi's sailor crystal because it bonded with her star seed, but Usagi says that without it she wouldn't have been even born, and Seiya tells her sailor crystals are created as special star seeds (thus, sailor crystals ARE star seeds in themselves, they don't bond with one).

On the other hand, whenever someone takes the brooch with the Silver Crystal from Sailor Moon in the manga, she looses her transformation. The same happened to Chibimoon in the Infinity arc when Hotaru, controlled by Mistress 9, did the same to her. The only time any of the two has transformed and kept the senshi transformation while someone else had their Silver Crystal in their hands was in the Dark Kingdom arc when brainwashed Tuxedo Kamen had taken it from Usagi and hurt Luna, and she transformed to stop him. However, that time we know evil Tuxedo Kamen had a portion of the Silver Crystal inside him, and he visibly saw the Silver Crystal react by glowing when Usagi transformed and screamed in grief... yet when ChibiUsa transformed into Chibimoon for the first time nobody said anything about the Silver Crystal in Sailor Venus' hands either glowing or teleporting away. Isn't that a bit weird?

Besides, being left without her Silver Crystal in the Infinity arc rendered ChibiUsa in a comatose state. Later while ChibiUsa's unconscious she dreams of being in this black void and finding her Silver Cystal, she says she needs it because it's a part of herself. Hotaru's ghost appears then and says the Silver Crystal is her spirit (or her heart, depending on the translation) and she shouldn't be off without it or show it to strangers... The way it's been put there, it's obvious ChibiUsa needs her Silver Crystal to be alive... if that is so, how come Neo Queen Serenity can really be off without hers, and have given it to ChibiUsa, if it's really HER Silver Crystal that ChibiUsa has now?

It's obvious the Silver Crystal is the core of the protection of Crystal Tokyo and Earth in the 30th Century (Wiseman tells the Black Moon members that they need 'to crush it' before they can take over Earth) thus if the only Silver Crystal they had belonged now to ChibiUsa, why send her to the past to train, leaving Crystal Tokyo without its protection, instead of training her themselves? After ChibiUsa's rgeret at having taken the Crystal from her mother's room and indirectly caused the trouble with the Black Moon, would she go off with it again to the past as if nothing had happened?

Last, in the Dark Kingdom arc Sailor Moon showed the ability of spontaneously creating weapons (a new tiara for example) and people have said it was because she had the Silver Crystal unknowingly hidden inside her. If this ability is related to the Silver Crystal, how come Neo Queen Serenity still possesses it after Chibimoon had supposedly taken her Crystal? At the end of the Black Moon arc, if you remember, she gives her rod to Chibimoon and sends her to help Sailor Moon and Tuxedo Kamen defeat Nemesis, and Sailor Moon's own rod shatters... then a BRAND NEW rod appears in Neo Queen Serenity's raised hand (its brand new because the one she had given ChibiUsa is round shaped and so is Sailor Moon's, but the one that appears in Neo Queen Serenity's hnd is heart shaped, so it's clearly a different rod) and she gives this rod to ChibiUsa, telling her to give it to Usagi... she also gives Sailor Moon a new brooch and nw powers to the inner senshi... AND, she not only resurrects Pluto but sends her soul to be reincarnated in the PAST... if Neo Queen Serenity no longer has her Crystal, how come she can do such things?

I just wanted to ask this questions and she if anyone can answer... Thanks a million times in advance for your time!

[Amy-Chan]

there are 'issues' with the story which get greater the futher on in the series you get... (that 5th season really should't of been written... big holes )

anyway the bit with the tear, its a from tear that the silver crystal appears in both the anime and live as its inside usagi, its probably like in a non physical form and becomes physical once it comes out, so hence probably why in the manga its a tear one frame and not the next.

[serefan]

Thanks a lot for replying! ^_^

I think you're right: the tear does take physical form, but that form is the Silver Crystal, isn't it? Not just a tear that resonates with it. In the anime, they made it so it was the Silver Crystal of the future that was hidden inside ChibiUsa's body since the beginning, and she uses it to help her mother defeat Wiseman... Then goes to the past with a compact that has a PINK crystal, so in the anime the crystal in ChibiUsa's compact can't be the Silver Crystal of the future, because it's a different color.

Another great objection: if the Silver Crystal is supposed to be passed down like this, how come Princess Serenity didn't transform into a senshi when Endymion died, in the Silver Millenium? Or why didn't the Silver Crystal just become hers then? (It clearly didn't, since Queen Serenity says that in her confusion at her daughter's suicide, she wasn't able to unleash the Silver Crystal's power enough to permanently seal Metalia).

Anyway, my issue with the whole thing is that while I don't have problem with Neo Queen Serenity giving the Silver Crystal to Small Lady as an inheritance after she dies, or once Small Lady grows up and takes the throne... but to think that ChibiUsa became the owner of her mother's crystal so early in the series, when she's clearly still a child and not very experienced or powerful (even in the manga) is something I have a lot of problems accepting as possible...

I mean, Usagi's own case was very different: there was no other way around it because Queen Serenity was dead and the enemy was right THERE, ready to take the planet... Usagi needed to defeat the Dark Kingdom right then and did not have the time to feel inferior to her mother's shadow or take the time to learn how to use the Crystal while having the chance of traveling to the past and learning from her mother: in her case, her having to be the one to use the Crystal's true power was clearly an emergency. That is not ChibiUsa's case though: even if wounded, during the whole Black Moon ordeal Neo Queen Serenity was very much alive, and was just healing... besides, the sensi of the past where there: it was Sailor Moon, not Chibimoon, who defeated Nemesis (the Neo Queen said so by stating Sailor Moon had borrowed Tuxedo Kamen's and Chbimoon's powers, but it was her... it was her scepter and brooch that shattered as a result of power overload, not Chibimoon's).

I can't either accept the fact that Neo Queen Serenity became secondary after ChibiUsa transformed... not when Chibimoon is clearly still not capable of defeating an enemy by herself, unlike Sailor Moon in the Dark Kingdom arc who DID defeat Metalia with just a very wounded Tuxedo Kamen's help. ChibiUsa is clearly not ready... she's always in awe of Sailor Moon and sometimes ever feels inferior... she says she's still not a full-fledged sailor senshi, and the Sailor Quartetto confirm this when they say they will awaken when that moment comes... when the series ends, she's still pretty much a senshi in training... and she's supposed to have her mother's Silver Crystal and power now?

Anyway, the more I look at it, the more I'm convinced Chibimoon had to have produced her own Crystal... and once she makes friends of her own that are sailor soldiers like herself (the Sailor Quartetto probably) the need to protect those friends will make her powerful enough to be the one to actually defeat ane enemy, unleashing the true power of her (own) Silver Crystal... as t is now, she's just gained the ability to transform, and some attacks, and thus not ready to take her mother's place... If the Crystal were truly handed from other to daughter, and not created her own by each, then it'd be a symbol that when the daughter receives the Crystal she' s ready to take the mother's place... I do not think that is ChibiUsa's case, at least not yet.

[Amy-Chan]

yeah problems with Naoko not following little things she defined herself (ironic she complained at TOIE (sp?) for doing the same) but so much suffers from the same
i don't feel its clear todo with the crystals, but you could say chibiusa gets her own one by the time she comes back as a senshi in opposed to the one that was her mothers (hence the reason future/present ones could not touch, which was good because it kept in with defined time laws)

neo queen serenity knew what was to come (not exact date) but after the blackmoon problem she sent chibiusa to the past supposidly for training (excellent place ) but it was probably more for the reasons of getting her past self to bond with chibiusa and to help chibiusa have friends (which she does't have)
I don't think its meant to say Neo Serenity is second, because it says she's the most powerful form above all the sailor transformations, and lets face it, sailor chibimoon is pretty useless on attacks! ^_^

[The Queen]

i have to agreed with amy, comond the atack of chibi moon are very funny belive me the first time i saw them i was going to die really i laugh so much.

[Tritogeneia]

serafan you should edit your posts a little and make them into articles and ask Betty Ann if she would put them on the Oracle Encyclopaedia. I think they are really good, this one and the one about Sailor Cosmos.

[Sailor Eris]

I have never read the manga series before, and one day i will because I've always loved the Sailor Moon stories, but last night I started thinking about the Phantom Silver Crystal and similar questions started running through my head.
My thoughts were, if Sailor Moon's phantom silver crystal blossomed into a "Silver Moon Crystal" later in the manga series, and then in the future, Sailor Chibi Moon inherits the the phantom silver crystal and later it blossomed into a "Pink Moon Crystal", how does that work??
How does one crystal blossoms into a Silver Moon Crystal, then goes back to its original form, then blossoms again into a Pink Moon Crystal??
Did Sailor Chibi Moon get her own crystal rather than inheriting Sailor Moon's crystal??

I hope my questions makes sense to you.
'Cause this whole thing doesn't make sense to me.

[Sailor Astera]

This is how I understand it based on the manga only:

When Pluto dies for stopping time in the Dark Moon Arc, this sets off Chibusa's true feelings. At that point, the crystal of the past and future are with either Sailor Moon or Venus as they are shown holding them. When Chibiusa cries, she produces a crystal and transforms, but the crystal doesn't seem to stay in physical form afterwards.

Later on, towards the end of SuperS Helios is seriously injured. When Chibiusa confronts this and tries to save him, the Pink Moon Crystal appears. Diana tells her that it is her own crystal.

It seems to me that up until that point, Chibiusa was using the Ginzuishou of the future (her mothers), but it still had not 'linked' to her. When it finally 'becomes the Pink Moon Crystal' it has totally synced with her spirit. Diana says, "Your silver crystal has been reborn."

[serefan]

Oh, I haven't been in this thread in ages.

It seems to me that up until that point, Chibiusa was using the Ginzuishou of the future (her mothers), but it still had not 'linked' to her. When it finally 'becomes the Pink Moon Crystal' it has totally synced with her spirit. Diana says, "Your silver crystal has been reborn."

Ah, many people seem to think this, but to me it sounds like a contradiction. Even though SailorMoon didn't get the Silver Moon Crystal till the Dream arc, the Silver Crystal was still bonded to her and affected by her emotions, and the same happened to ChibiUsa: before her Silver Crystal changed to PinkMoon Crystal, she was still lined with it and vicerversa: if her Silver Crystal hadn't truly linked to her till the Dream arc (when it changes into the Pink Moon Crystal) then how come she was so affected by Mistress 9 taking it from her in the previous arc, when it had supposedly still not truly 'linked' to her? Why does she say, when she's floating in a black void while unconscious and finds the Silver Crystal, hat she can't be without it? Why does Hotaru say it's her spirit/heart already in that arc, the Infinity arc?

And Diana says "your" Silver Crystal has been reborn, not "the"Silver Crystal has been reborn.

I'm not saying any of that can't be true, but just that this is why I believe there's no conclusive evidence either way (either that it is a different crystal or not), so it really bothers me how on wikipedia editors take one version as factual and call ChibiUsa's crystal and items "the Silver Crysta of the future" and "the Holy Chalice of the future". Especially the Holy Chalice... it was supposed to have been created with the power of the Inners and Outers, and we don't even know where Saturn, Uranus and Neptune are in the 30th century, so it is just a fan assumption that the second Holy Chalice that shows up with SailorMoon is "the one from the future". -_-

[Sailor Eris]

Is it safe to say that maybe, when Chibi Usa was crying over Sailor Pluto's death, that her tear turned into her own crystal and that one day that same crystal will blossom into her Pink Moon Crystal? Of course the silver crystal of the past and future cannot be too close together, but Chibi Usa's crystal is somewhat, a different crystal all together.
And then we see that picture of Sailor Venus holding one of the crystals. Id like to assume that maybe, Chibi Usa took the crystal-of-the-future, back to the future, gave it back to her mom, Neo Queen Serenity, using her crystal, created the new rod and brooch for the present Sailor Moon, and then Chibi Usa returned to the past for her training, or to defeat Death Phantom with her Cutie Moon Rod?
Toei just didn't show pictures hehe ^^

Oh gosh, I hope that makes sense.....
I have been thinking about this for a while..
But, I also like to think that due to the many plot holes Sailor Moon has in the story, it kind of gives reasons for the poeple who enjoy writing up fanfics, to find a way to cover up those plot holes.
But thats just an opinion

But going back to what I said before.. now Im thinking of a reason as to how and why Queen Serenity was able to use the Silver Crystal when it really belongs to Sailor Moon...
Is it possible to combine two different crystals together? I know that you cant combine two of the same crystal together, but two different ones.
This is now bringing up a fanfic idea into my head
Maybe, Queen Serenity combined her crystal with Princess Serenity's crystal to make it stronger, and that both of them can use it.....
I wonder if that will clash??

Sorry pplz, it's 1am in the morning for me and at this time my imagination flows everywhere lol